Wednesday, August 24, 2005

A Rebuttal in a Long and Arduous Debate... Just the Kind of Think i Enjoy

In response to A Request for JC Masterpiece Regarding Evolution posted by Jewish Atheist.

By the way, in direct response to "I think it is simply because he has been taught only one side of the story, not because he is close-minded", no person can ever attend a public school of any sort and not know about the theory of evolution. It's the problems with that theory that most people are not really told about in school.

That's an interesting article and i appreciate the gesture. Unfortunately, i have done enough research and research papers in my years of undergraduate and graduate work to know that science is far, far from infallible.

All you have to do is look at all of the times the "missing link" between ape and man has been found. In one case it was the tooth that was thought to be some supposed human ancestor. It was given to Dr. Henry Fairfield Osbom, the head of the department of palaeontology at New York’s American Museum of Natural History. He thought it might have been a tooth from a "missing link". A drawing of what the "missing link" and his wife could possibly have looked like appeared in the Illustrated London News in 1922. Later it is quietly discovered that that tooth wasn't really any sort of link at all, but rather it was the tooth of a wild pig. Of course this was swept under the rug. In spite of the fact that the origional article had posted in a major newspaper, the short rebuttal appeared in a scientific journal that the general public would not read. Hmmm, i wonder why that was?

The past century is strewn with absolute proofs of "missing links" only to have those "missing links" later proven to be false. This kind of thing happens all the time. Science and scientists prove something only to turn around a couple of days, few months, a century later and someone comes along and "proves" that the last person was wrong.

I thought that his quote from the Quotations Page, Quotes of the Day for August 22 applies beautifully to this concept;
"Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had."
Michael Crichton, Caltech Michelin Lecture, January 17, 2003
US author & screenwriter (1942 - )
I thought that this quote was perfect as it summs up the nature of science, scientific studies, and research beautifully.

Needless to say i take many scientific journals and studies with a grain of salt. Oftentimes there is possibly some truth in what they say, but just as with bad exegesis of the Bible, people tend to read into the facts what they want to.

It's funny sometimes when i think about it because so many people put so much faith in science that those people treat it like a god even when it's falicies lay right in front of them, and to some people science is their god. I've seen the same thing with education, religion (that the religion itself and not God is the god), the concept of love, and especially money. The more i've thought about this idea the more that i agree with what one of my professors said once. Everyone has their own gods that they worship. It doesn't matter that they aren't made of metal and people don't physically bow down to them. They are their own gods none the less. (not an exact quote, but you get the idea)

12 comments:

dbackdad said...

I'd be a little careful about quoting Michael Crichton in a scientific context. Though he tries to pass himself off as knowledgeable in the field, he is not and pushes his own opinions.

State of Fear

Jewish Atheist said...

All you have to do is look at all of the times the "missing link" between ape and man has been found.

Actually, there are many, many "missing" links between ape and man. We have hundreds of fossils. Here is a striking picture of 14 skulls from the following species, the middle 12 of which are so-called "missing links."



* (A) Pan troglodytes, chimpanzee, modern
* (B) Australopithecus africanus, STS 5, 2.6 My
* (C) Australopithecus africanus, STS 71, 2.5 My
* (D) Homo habilis, KNM-ER 1813, 1.9 My
* (E) Homo habilis, OH24, 1.8 My
* (F) Homo rudolfensis, KNM-ER 1470, 1.8 My
* (G) Homo erectus, Dmanisi cranium D2700, 1.75 My
* (H) Homo ergaster (early H. erectus), KNM-ER 3733, 1.75 My
* (I) Homo heidelbergensis, "Rhodesia man," 300,000 - 125,000 y
* (J) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Ferrassie 1, 70,000 y
* (K) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, La Chappelle-aux-Saints, 60,000 y
* (L) Homo sapiens neanderthalensis, Le Moustier, 45,000 y
* (M) Homo sapiens sapiens, Cro-Magnon I, 30,000 y
* (N) Homo sapiens sapiens, modern

Jewish Atheist said...

The document from which I took that image, is worth looking into, btw.

Orthoprax said...

JC,

Popular media crap is made so that it promotes sensationalism and often sacrifices actual factual information.

The news is full of first-time studies and their amazing conclusions. But of course, you should take them with a few grains of salt. Let them do a half a dozen more and then come and announce something substantial.

You knock at evolution though, is lame. Yes, a few items are bullshit, but there are tons of good stuff that you are apparently overlooking.

You don't judge the weight of Chemistry on the conclusions of one failed reaction, do you?

JCMasterpiece said...

dbackdad, i'm sorry where it your substantial support for your statement? You need to show me a Journal Article from an institution on the East Coast. Oh, you don't have easy access to that or the time to fly out there. Than your statement must be ignorant and unvariably flawed. Here let me get my friends to come post comments stating that you must be ignorant or stupid for believing that so that i can feel better and justified as a person.

Kidding and sarcasm aside, you are criticising a quote from a novelist about his novel not being scientific enough. He knows and understands that what he writes is not a science journal. What he writes is a novel for entertainment purposes. It is not a newspaper that is supposed to educate the people about the facts but that then turns around and puts a very biased spin on it while completely ignoring or minimizing anything that doesn't fit with the beliefs of its financers.

Jewish Atheist said...

JC,

What do you have to say about the picture I posted?

JCMasterpiece said...

By the way JA, lovely picture. Fragements of bones connected to other fragments of bones believed to be of the same thing with lots of missing pieces of bone filled in with what is assumed what the missing bones would probably look like and then with that possible rendition of a skull the nature of the creature is thought or assumed to be a missing link. Lovely. Do i take it seriously? Not especially.

When i picked the example that i picked for my comment, i did so to point out the fact that this was a leading palaeontologist from a leading, world renound, museum. This is someone who was supposed to know what he was talking about. But even he took a fragment, assumed it was something it wasn't, and then published it in a major newspaper to tell the world and masses about his finding when he did not have all of the facts.

In fact this tooth was used as evidence in the Scopes trial that attempted to put Evolution into the schools. It's interesting. False information was used to support evolution being placed in public schools and then swept under the rug. Hmmmm...

There are numerous other examples of this kind of thing happening. When a leading scientist in a field begins making unproven statements to the public as to what he seriously believed he had discovered, it should make people think that maybe this "science" isn't so "scientific" after all.

Thus i'm sure that you can understand that i have difficulty taking the claims of the picture seriously.

Other problems with "missing links"
Lucy or Australopithecus afarensis
Neanderthal Man
Piltdown Man
Java Man
Peking Man
and numerous other "errors"

Some interesting articles to look at can be found including Making Man out of Monkeys,
Making Monkeys out of Man, and Missing Link

Jewish Atheist said...

How old do you believe the Earth is, JC?

dbackdad said...

Substantial support for what statement? You're becoming a little unhinged. I said don't trust what Michael Crichton says within a scientific context. Through his speaking engagements and advocacy, it is obvious that he IS pushing a specific agenda. Through that AND his fiction, it's obvious that he has no idea what he is talking about. You quoted him to illustrate that scientists are not to be trusted. He has no qualifications to make such a statement.

JCMasterpiece said...

Actually, dbackdad, what i took from that quote is not that scientists are untrustworthy, as some are or try to be. It is that science is full of people and theories that continually disagree with one another. Science is in itself in a continual state of flux, as such if someone is saying that the consensus of scientists believe something is true, hold onto your wallet because they are likely just trying to sell you something. And that my friend, is something that i for a great part agree with.

JCMasterpiece said...

JC,

What do you have to say about the picture I posted?


JA, what did you think of my comments and thoughts about people's "gods"

How old do you believe the Earth is, JC?

Must... not... start... another... major... debate.... (sound of hand being ripped off of keyboard)

Jewish Atheist said...

Everyone has their own gods that they worship. It doesn't matter that they aren't made of metal and people don't physically bow down to them. They are their own gods none the less.

Well, I suppose you can define "god" to include anything one "worships," in which case, sure, money, drugs, sex, communism, whatever, can be gods. But not "gods" in the traditional sense of the word. It's hard in general debating about god or gods or any abstraction since the definitions can be so slippery.

Too bad you don't want to get into the age of the Earth debate. :) I've always wondered what people who believe in a young Earth think of how starlight has reached earth from millions of lightyears away. I'm sure you have an answer, though, and we probably won't get anywhere.