This is a post in response to the post and comments coming from Jewish Atheist and some of the readers of his blog (read: not necessarily his viewpoint). I normally have a very good time reading his posts and debating about things with him and others. Please read the post and converstion that has come from it before reading this blog as not doing so will drastically take this out of context.
Read any major newspaper. Watch any major news station, except FOX News. Watch just about any major movie distributed by the major distributing companies and you will see beyond a shadow of a doubt that anyone with a conservative Christian view is treated like a loon. Your posts and the sources that you quote show this all the time. Even a major insurance company (i think it was allstate if it's that important for you to have absolute undenyable proof of this you can research it yourself as you appear to have plenty of time to do that kind of thing) recently fired a man because he spoke out against homosexuality on a forum on his own time and completely anonymously without ever making mention of his work or the company. When companies look for someone to fire/lay off they tend to first fire married WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) men with children because they are least likely to get sued that way. Almost any time a politician makes a statement of faith they get criticized by the media and the government. Just look at the attempts to bring conservative Christians to balance out the extremely liberal Supreme Court (or do you need research to back that up too).
Yes i know that Jews have been treated unfairly by many people. But as you yourself have even stated as a Jew you used to look solely for Jewish buisnesses to support. In the business world Jews are the most successful buisnessmen in the world. Which i understand in the context of the Bible. They are God's chosen and blessed people.
Those movie distribution companies that i griped about earlier are owned almost exclusively by Jews. Which is why Mel Gibson had such a difficult time finding a distributor for The Passion of the Christ (if you need research to support this statement as well, see my comment earlier). If it had been a movie about a major Islamic, or Hindu, or any other major religious figure, there would have been very little resistance.
I have no real problems with Jews. My cousins are Jews and i rather enjoy spending time with them.
I don't deny that Jews have been treated unfairly, but if anyone thinks that conservative Christians aren't persecuted they have turned a very blind eye. More Christians have been killed/martyered in the world in the last 100 years than have in the 1900 years previously combined. To say that conservative Christians are not persecuted is rediculous.
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I think it's simply untrue that conservative Christians are persecuted in any meaningful way in America. Right-wing Christians control the House, Senate, AND the White House.
Every single senator, Democrat or Republican, is or claims to be Christian, with the exception of a couple of Jews.
Christians have successfully reduced the funding for stem cell research, preventing scientific breakthroughs and cures to disease. They are never criticized for this by the mainstream media.
The United States Armed Forces bar homosexuals. The military fired several Arabic linguists despite great need for Arabic linguists, because conservative Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin and that the United States government should be in the business of preventing sexual sins.
It is legal to discriminate against homosexuals in housing and employment because conservative Christians want it that way.
The practice of abstinence-only sex education is commonplace, despite evidence that it is less successful in preventing STDs and pregancy than sex ed which includes information about condoms and other forms of birth control.
There are television shows like Touched by an Angel and countless televangelists on cable and regular television. Passion of the Christ was controversial not because it was about Jesus but because it originally contained an anti-semitic part. The original version implied that the Jews deserved the guilt for Jesus' death.
The United States observes a National Day of Prayer. On the money, it says "In God we Trust." Conservative Christians in the 60s added the words "under God" to the Pledge.
The Boy Scouts don't allow homosexuals or atheists as members. Can you imagine if they didn't allow Christians?
The only thing that Christians are EVER prevented from doing is forcing others to follow Christian beliefs. Christians can't put the 10 commandments in a federal courthouse and they think they're being persecuted. Give me a break. Christians are allowed to pray in schools, but think they're persecuted because they can't pray out loud in order to make the one Muslim girl in the class extremely uncomfortable. In dozens of states, you can't buy liquor on Sundays, because it's the Christian Sabbath. You can buy liquor on Saturdays though even though it's the Jewish Sabbath.
Almost every Senator and House Representative claims to be Christian. However in their policymaking it becomes obvious that this is not really the truth. Right-wing does not equal conservative Christian.
It's not just the Christian's who see stem-cell research as morally problematic. They just tend to be the most outspoken ones. Thus they also take the backlash.
The US Armed Forces have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. If you're outspoken about your homosexuality then they kick you out.
I have never personally met anyone who has ever been discriminated against due to housing and employment due to being homosexual. And yet people are discrimintated against because they disagree with homosexuality even when research supports the notion that homosexuality has environmental factors (i wrote a couple of papers on this in graduate school).
That's interesting what you say about the statistics that state that abstinance only sex ed is less successful, as all the statistics i've seen have pointed in the other direction. But then that doesn't really surprise me knowing the nature of statistics.
Shows like Touched by an Angel are an exception rather than a rule and it was canceled despite high ratings because the producers would not remove the references to God in the show.
Other than a handful of televangelists on on Sunday mornings there are no conservative Christian shows on regular television and almost every other show is liberal or has a ver liberal slant to it.
All but the National Day of Prayer (which encourages believers of all faiths to pray) happened in the 60's and more and more of these "religious" icons are being removed from courthouses and such on practically a daily basis and those judges who disagree or refuse to are being removed.
The boy scouts are a private "Christian" organization, not a government one. The origional problem was that homosexual men were become leaders and then seducing boys into sexual relationships. So when the Boy Scouts banned homosexuals from being leaders they were criticized for being anti-homosexual and it turned into a huge fiasco. Personally i wouldn't want my sons to be seduced by a homosexual man either. Last i had heard the Scouts had fallen to the political pressure.
Anyone from any religious background can pray in school as long as they don't do it out loud. If they want to have a student led Bible club they can, but only after a great many court cases in which the Free Access Law was upheld has that been possible. But even now, oftentimes the schools make the kids jump through hoops for it in order to disuade them as much as possible. If it wasn't for all of the ACLJ's work in this area this wouldn't even be possible.
Your complaint seems to be that conservative Christians are treated like loons in the media.
I believe that Christians have it better than everybody else in America.
Groups worse off:
Gays. They aren't allowed to marry, and can be legally discriminated against. Can't be in the military unless they want to hide their soulmate/partner/whatever and basically pretend to be straight. It's not about being "outspoken," it's about being honest about who you are. Are often physically threatened. Are conflated with pedophiles by ignoramuses.
Arab-Americans. Targets of vicious stereotyping. As actors, are usually offered roles as terrorists.
African-Americans. Still, on average, get less pay for the same work, have worse public schools, and are treated unfairly by the police.
Atheists: Many states have laws barring atheists from holding public office. Many atheists feel they have to hide their beliefs from coworkers and neighbors. More people say they would vote for a gay president than an atheist one.
Your big gripes are that the media makes your political views look silly and that The Passion was a difficult movie to produce. Yeah, persecution, sure. The fact is that conservative Christian political support in this country is HUGE and The Passion was produced and made a billion dollars.
Pathetic handwringing.
But it's a religious belief, not a rational one, drilled into your head each week in church since childhood that Christians are a doomed persecuted society. And that's why you are incapable of analyzing the whole idea objectively.
Did it ever occur to you that an overly religious, violent, foreign language film with an originally intended limited audience was not what has gotten the big bucks as a blockbuster historically? Production is about money and what people will think will sell and before the controversy The Passion was destined for obscurity.
But no, it's got to be persecution.
JC, I think that this battle is futile. Remember 1Cor 1:18. I have lived this kind of conversation many times over with a husband who is not a believer. About two years ago I gave him over to the Lord and just continue to pray for him.
JA and Orthoprax, i would have to agree with you that my biggest gripe (that i had stated here) has to do with the media.
However in reality there are two areas that i have the biggest problem with, the media, and believe me i could go on and on about that, and the higher educational system (which is also being fed by the public schools and partially funded by the government).
When a professor makes a statement to the effect that America deserved the 9-11 attack and more and then is applauded for it, then at the same school a student who takes a stand for conservative Christianity is basically kicked out for being intolerant, it makes for some serious problems. I have heard many Christians who are professionals who went to an ivy league school and basically hid their Christian identity because they knew if they didn't and they did say anything that disagrees with the liberal viewpoint domineering their classes, their professors would fail them and make it impossible for them to successfully graduate.
This is a major problem because it is the people who go to these schools who will become the leaders of tomorrow. If all that these students hear is that anything that is conservative or Christian is biased, prejudiced, intolerant, and ignorant they will take that and apply that to all areas of their lives and work, including government.
(By the way, everyone is biased, prejudiced, and intolerant in some ways, and anyone who believes that they aren't is most likely lying to themselves. This is a fundamental concept that all therapists "should be" being taught to understand.)
Thus with the educational system attempting to propegate this with the intellectuals and the media teaching the mainstream population. It is something that is being attacked on all sides. It is only a matter of time before this comes to a major head. This is already evident in supreme court where the justices are "interpreting" the Constitution more along the lines of "freedom from religion" instead of "freedom of religion".
Hi JC, I'm going to put 3 points in one post, so please respond to each by number if you can:
1) "I have heard many Christians who are professionals who went to an ivy league school and basically hid their Christian identity because they knew if they didn't and they did say anything that disagrees with the liberal viewpoint domineering their classes, their professors would fail them and make it impossible for them to successfully graduate."
They may have believed that, but it never happens. Please cite one example in the entire history of the United States where a student was failed and not graduated because they didn't hide their Christian beliefs.
2) When a professor makes a statement to the effect that America deserved the 9-11 attack and more and then is applauded for it, then at the same school a student who takes a stand for conservative Christianity is basically kicked out for being intolerant, it makes for some serious problems.
Where did this happen? Who applauded this professor? What precisely was the student kicked out for? It would help if your allegations provided any details which could be checked.
Do you have the same complaint about Jerry Falwell, who also said that America (probably) deserves worse than what happened on 9/11?:
Then Falwell said, "What we saw on [9/11], as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact, God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve."
Robertson replied, "Well, Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror, we haven't begun to see what they can do to the major population."
Falwell said, "The ACLU has got to take a lot of blame for this. And I know I'll hear from them for this, but throwing God...successfully with the help of the federal court system...throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad...I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America...I point the thing in their face and say you helped this happen." (Source.)
3) This is already evident in supreme court where the justices are "interpreting" the Constitution more along the lines of "freedom from religion" instead of "freedom of religion".
a) The justices are "interpreting" the constitution because their entire job is to interpret the constitution.
b) The justices have never ruled against freedom OF religion. Where is the ruling that says Christians may not wear crosses or that Jews may not wear yarmulkas? Where did they rule that Christians may be fired for being Christian? They NEVER rule against freedom of religion. The rulings which I presume you are talking about provide for freedom FROM religion in ADDITION to freedom OF religion. Why do you oppose freedom FROM religion? Would you like to be forced to eat only kosher? Why should secular homosexuals be forced to follow Christian rules? Why should Hindu students be forced to pray to Jesus or God?
If the courts ever rule that you MUST marry someone of the same gender, or that you MUST have an abortion, then you might have a complaint. However, it seems like all of the decisions which conservative Christians disagree with don't even affect them! Christians simply want to be able to control non-Christians' lives, and the courts are saying no. That is not being persecuted, it's being prevented from persecuting others.
In answer to points 1 and 2, i can't give you direct sources because these things came from people not newspaper articles or research papers. These are people that i know that wouldn't want my naming them directly.
If you need proof, of some sort, go to an ivy league school, find the young Republican's clubs and ask the students there what kinds of experiences they had when they spoke up around the time of the last election. I would be shocked if any stories like this ever showed up in the mainstream media.
As for the justices. I know that their job is to "interpret" the Constitution. There is no way that the founding fathers could have known what the world would be like today. There had to be a system in place to deal with that. However, i don't think that the founding fathers intended that an anti-religious doctrine be taught by a government run educational system.
The creation story in one form or another appears in every major religion in the world. When evolution is solely taught in government run schools, and any attempt to dismiss it or teach another possible explanation than an anti-religious one is rejected, the government is basically saying, all religions are false and believing one literally is a falicy. The only people that have the right to make a statement of belief in a school setting are atheists and agnostics. Thus it is most definitely not a freedom of religion it is a freedom from.
Ultimately there is no easy answer to this debate.
If you want to know more about how Christian's rights get trampled every day, try contacting the ACLJ to see what they have to say.
The creation story in one form or another appears in every major religion in the world. When evolution is solely taught in government run schools, and any attempt to dismiss it or teach another possible explanation than an anti-religious one is rejected, the government is basically saying, all religions are false and believing one literally is a falicy.
Creation stories are not science. Evolution is science. Schools teach science, but not religion. Moreover, lots and lots of religious people believe in evolution. This is why evolution is taught (because it's science and science is taught in schools) and creationism isn't.
You seem to have trouble distinguishing between "non-religious" and "anti-religious." There is nothing anti-religious about evolution -- it's simply a scientific theory which explains the origins of the species based on evidence from biology, chemistry, paleontology, medicine, etc.
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